Idler replacements and rankings + stuff about delegations

[wieder]

Here is a log from the game chat. We are discussing about how to give ranking points for those players who replace idlers and also to those who are replacing players who no longer can play the game.

We also talked about delegations. How to limit delegation times and prevent delegations from being abused. A straight forward way would be allowing a fixed max number of delegation turns but would there be an issue with that? Something like 30 turns should be able to cover all possible situations where the player is still coming back but is not outsourcing the entire game for someone else. That could be 20 or 40 turns or something else.

Any opinions about this?

[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:12:22) <Kryon> what should I do with idler replacements in ranking?
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:12:39) <Wieder> I don't know really... But...
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:12:48) <Wieder> You you think it's an advantage for someone?
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:12:56) <Kryon> they missed first few turns so maybe I should count them as survivors if they lose
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:13:25) <Wieder> That sounds fair
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:13:31) <Wieder> Or wauit
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:13:34) <Wieder> wait*
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:13:46) <Wieder> Would it allow them to become extra survivors?
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:14:08) <Wieder> Hard to say
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:14:15) <Kryon> well yes...they will not lose any points if they lose
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:14:25) <Kryon> or should they still lose points?
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:14:47) <Kryon> or maybe
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:14:48) <Wieder> You could ask some opinions on the forum about that...?
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:15:03) <Kryon> we can count the original player as loser if they lose
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:15:10) <Kryon> and new player as winner if they win
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:15:23) <Kryon>
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:15:27) <Wieder> I would count them as regular players since they only lost few turns. Or make them to lose some % of the points and not full 100%
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:16:06) <Kryon> for every turn they miss I could reduce the pts lost by 10%
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:16:16) <Wieder> The really hard question are the replacement players
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:16:21) <Kryon> but I want to punish the idlers as well
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:16:36) <Kryon> I will probably count the idlers as losers as well
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:16:40) <Wieder> Ifaesfu told me that he no longer can continue playing
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:17:01) <Wieder> and we are looking for a replacement (and ifaesfu's confirmation on the forum)
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:17:42) <Wieder> It's your call how to decide what to do with them
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:17:54) <Wieder> Maybe this helps or not...
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:18:03) <Kryon> but how to calculate ranking if a player played for long time and then replaced by another later?
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:18:14) <Kryon> I will think about it
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:18:19) <Wieder> We are replacing the players to keep the game interesting for everyone and how to make it interesting also to those who replaced?
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:18:33) <Wieder> Yeah, that's a tough one
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:18:58) <Kryon> do you have any delegation limits set?
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:19:14) <Wieder> At least I would say that the replacement should play more than 50% of the turns in order to win
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:19:36) <Wieder> One delegation / player
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:19:39) <Wieder> but nothing more
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:19:58) <Kryon> I mean turn limit
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:20:14) <Wieder> We got some stuff to add on the list about LT35
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:20:23) <Wieder> If it's not on the rules, then no
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:20:59) <Kryon> once, I had proposed delegation limit of only once per month and maximum of 2 weeks duration
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:21:14) <Wieder> "Controlling two nations for too long is frowned upon. If the original player is away for too long his nation may be removed or given away to someone else."
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:21:17) <Kryon> that guarantees original player playing at least half the time
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:21:18) <Wieder> From the rules
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:22:01) <Kryon> well that rule is very subjective!
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:22:09) <Wieder> I'll talk with akfaew about that but I think that would make it possible to set a limit even while the game has started. It would be just stating what the turn limit is
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:22:43) <Kryon> limiting duration is not enough
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:22:49) <Kryon> you should also limit delegation frequency
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:22:50) <Wieder> Also "If a player is idle (does not log in) for more than 10 turns, or 3 turns from the beginning of the game or his creation time, he might be removed from the game or his nation given away."
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:23:17) <Wieder> Has that ever been limited during the game?
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:23:32) <Kryon> no but it should be
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:23:33) <Kryon> b/c
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:24:01) <Kryon> if limit is say 10 turns...a player can delegate for 10 turns and then undelegate and delegate again for another 10 days and so on
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:24:06) <Wieder> What we used to have was that you can't control 2 nations on the same turn even if one delegation ends before the second begins
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:24:25) <Kryon> that is not the issue
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:24:43) <Kryon> I am talking about delegation to same nation
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:24:56) <Wieder> I would say that 20 turns would be the limit ... but what to do with repeated delegations
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:25:02) <Wieder> Yeah, good question
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:25:06) <Wieder> Has that ever happened?
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:25:18) <Kryon> yes it did happen...ok my proposal is this
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:25:52) <Kryon> set a delegation duration limit of X turns... and players can delegate only once every 2X turns
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:26:02) <Kryon> or 3X turns
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:26:34) <Kryon> e.g 20 days duration and once every 40 days
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:27:05) <Wieder> Delegate his nation for someone or receive a delegation?
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:27:15) <Kryon> delegate to someone
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:27:18) <Wieder> ok
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:27:26) <Wieder> I'll talk with akfaew about that
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:27:41) <Kryon> ok I d prefer smthg like 10 days and 30 days
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:27:50) <Kryon> instead of 20 and 40
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:27:52) <Wieder> Weekend vacations and some week long vacations should be ok
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:28:11) <Wieder> I remember some people travelling to another country for 2 weeks
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:28:19) <Wieder> and that happened several times and they returned
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:28:41) <Kryon> sure...and someone else can go away for 1 month
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:28:51) <Wieder> Yeah, but those people never return
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:29:00) <Kryon> then 20 days and once every 60 days?
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:29:26) <Kryon> most countries have internet
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:29:33) <Wieder> Maybe we can't do that big changes for LT34 or maybe we can
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:29:51) <Wieder> But we could decide that everyone can delegate for 30 turns during the game
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:29:53) <Wieder> and no more
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:30:26) <Kryon> that is also a good idea
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:30:33) <Wieder> That should cover all possible situations
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:30:50) <Wieder> The problem with all these rules is that how to keep track of them?
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:31:05) <Kryon> akfaew can write a php code for this
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:31:28) <Wieder> That would be good if he has time for it
[14:38:14] (T10 - 21:31:40) <Kryon> yes lets ask him....ok I gotta go to bed now

[wieder]

A 30-40 turn limit is good for teamless games, but what about team games? It would sold the problem with potential idler abuse and with that I mean someone picking potential idlers so that the good players can control two nations for a very long time. Then again it might result with lots of problems for a team losing players because of idling.

How bad would it be if team players would be replaced after 30 turns if there are players who want to play? If there wouldn't be any players, there would no replacing and no removal of a nation even if that nation was controlled by some player for more than 30 turns. There are few questions with this.

1) If someone leaves a team game and is not coming back, that player could be replaced at the first possible moment. I think that the other teams should have a veto for that. A good player replacing a newcomer may be unfair.

2) Replacing a player after 30 turns. Should there be a veto for the other teams to prevent this?

3) How to select the replacement? A good way for doing that might be picking the replacements in order. Is there any reason why they should be picked in random order or some other way?

4) Should the team that gets the replacement player have a veto about the player? Not everyone wants to play with everyone.

5) The player who is joining the game will have to be able to say no if he or she doesn't want to join some team. With FIFO (first in, first out from the waiting list) that player should probably be moved to the last place when that happens?

[maho]

I think that pretty good delegation limit is to delegate right to decide if it's abuse or not to some man or council of men.

So, when you feel that it's abuse, you cut by your decision (if you're Master of Scissors). In such way it's harder to fool rules, because rules are flexible .