elephants

[Wahazar]

In my opinion, 22 shields for elephants make this unit overpowered, if compared to other units such horsemen, swordsmen, chariot etc.
Because elephants are obsoleted by dragoons, I propose to set shield cost 45, but increase hitpoints to 20.
It would give expensive but powerful and durable ancient version of tank, whereas other units also are usable.

[wieder]

HP20 with attack of 3 would make the elephants similar to musks.

I think we will revert to what we had with Freeciv 2.3 and that's making both attack and defense 2. This was changed with c2c3 with the upgrade to 2.5.

[Wahazar]

HP20 with attack of 3 would make the elephants similar to musks.

HP20 and shield cost 45 is roughly equal to two elephants with HP10 and costs 22 as it is now.

I think we will revert to what we had with Freeciv 2.3 and that's making both attack and defense 2. This was changed with c2c3 with the upgrade to 2.5.

Or at least give default 30 cost, as is for civ2civ3 ruleset. By now, 22 shields for these elephants are too cheap if compared to attack/defense/mobility.

[Hans_Lemurson]

30 production for Elephants puts them at equal cost with Chariots and Catapults. However, given their versatility, this might not be bad. They have the speed of chariots, but trade a lower attack for higher defense and no terrain limits.

What about Swordsmen? They have a Chariot's attack, but not its mobility, and they die just as easy as a Phalanx. Are they overpriced?

[Wahazar]

What about Swordsmen? They have a Chariot's attack, but not its mobility, and they die just as easy as a Phalanx. Are they overpriced?

Definitely yes. In civ2Civ3 rules, Legion has "Marine" flag, thus such cost is justified. In LT, there is no marine flag.
On the other hand, Swordsmen can move anywhere, unlike chariot/catapult. something between 26..28 would be fair.

[fran]

In my opinion, 22 shields for elephants make this unit overpowered, if compared to other units such horsemen, swordsmen, chariot etc.

In order to get elephants you have to research polytheism, which is a esoteric research path for early game, where you need to long for better government or better units via legion feudalism etc.
So the relative cheapness of elephants and their power compensates for the research you need to put into it.
I admit this is not as obvious in a team game like LT44, but it is exactly as it should be, and it shouldn't be changed at all.
What you're actually suggesting is to remove all choice at all if it comes to research paths, and the opposite is needed.

[Wahazar]

In order to get elephants you have to research polytheism, which is a esoteric research path for early game, where you need to long for better government or better units via legion feudalism etc.
So the relative cheapness of elephants and their power compensates for the research you need to put into it.

Such argument is rather insignificant in case of team game, as you stated by yourself, thus standard value of 30 should apply.
But in general, we should consider both relevant choices of research path or production - having cheap powerful unit is not a good idea at all.
Therefore, my initial proposal fits well into your statement: make elephants expensive (45 shields) but persistent, like elephants are (20 HP), thus it is worth to develop Polytheism, as well as other weak but cheap units are also usable.

[wieder]

There was actually an error with the cost of elephants. The cost of 22 was planned when both attack and defense were 2 in 2.3 but that was not adjusted when we switched to 2.5 and civ2civ3 made the elephants more powerful. The alternative would be using c2c3 attack power and changing the cost to 30. Now the research path for polytheism is kind of double compensated.

[Hans_Lemurson]

Elephants that cost 30 would require that we be a lot more discerning in our choice of attacking units.
2A 2D Elephants would basically just be "Fast Phalanxes" with a nominal attack ability.

[Lord_P]

Traditionally when Elephants where 2.2. no one used them. There is some small advantage to having a mobile phalanx type unit but not enough to worth the high price. It because they have been undervalued and given higher attack that they are being used at all.

So I would suggest.. Make them full price (30) A3 D2 but make them into Elephant Archers with bombard attack. Maybe give them infantry move rate too which would be more realistic...

So for infantry you get a progression from Warrior, Phalanx, Swordsman
Mounted attack units progress from Horsemen, Chariot, knights etc.
Then bombard infantry with Archers, Elephant archers..... (Grenadiers... Snipers... )

[fran]

*Sigh* Elephants were around for so long for 22. Did that change the way people need to play in order to win? No, it didn't. So make them cheaper. Say 20, better 18.

[fran]

So I would suggest.. Make them full price (30) A3 D2 but make them into Elephant Archers with bombard attack.

Aargh. Et tu, Brute?

[wieder]

How about attack of 3 but with cost of 26?

Long gone are the days when every unit and building cost were a multiply of 10

[wieder]

Still time to object

build_cost = 24
pop_cost = 0
attack = 3
defense = 2
hitpoints = 10
firepower = 1
move_rate = 5

[Wahazar]

MP 5 seems fair. Elephants are slower than horses.

[Hans_Lemurson]

Seems fair. It will reduce their ability to charge through rough terrain, and give Chariots a comparable movement advantage when roads are built up.