Double move exploit.

edrim · Post by **edrim** » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:56 am

There is known, not only in this game but for a long time, that we are fighting with double moves (for those who are not know what I am talking about: it is a double move over TC, make your move just before TC, like roads, fortress and all other stuff, and then make your moves with same units just after TC, so you can have doble moved once somebody is offline), we have spent many hours to invent how to prevent it.

There are very ethical guys in this game, which accused some other players for using caravans once they knew idea about it quite same time in game, but start flame war about using caravans, ethic, etc. with a view that using exploits are out of them.

Maybe now is a part of a game that explain mechanism of exploiting double moves over TC by terrerian changeing.

We are happy to play this game longer then others wants because of finding bugs and other situations that should not be able to do.

Can you write an algorithm how you are using double moves? I am talking to Drew now, because I saw how he used his boat double move in TC T89/T90, this is a bug which should be corrected in next game and has nothing to ruleset we are playing on. Maybe some other players will want to use it and don't know that it even existed, same like caravans.

Cgalik asked in his post how to research multiply techs in one turn (even it was known by him from at least 20 turns), so I think it is ok, that I am asking how to exploit unitwaittime?

Drew · Post by **Drew** » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:18 pm

Yes, if you have enough engineers on a boat to transform ocean to swamp in one turn, the 10 hour unitwaittime will not apply. I assume this happens for any unit that is "moved due to changing terrain" but I am not sure. I learned about this in LT35. Maybe I should have waited for a TC when Edrim was not online, to leave a little more mystery as to why ocean near him was changing into swamp

Post by **wieder** » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:59 pm

Nice trick

cgalik · Post by **cgalik** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:54 am

edrim,

Thanks for the post! Great to hear from you! Of course it's always ok to ask on the forum!

How was the reply? Pretty easy, and straight forward. Which is how the other post could have gone... but no...

And I guess you're still mad at me and the rest of us for still trying to figure it out as a community how to best play LT37?

edrim · Post by **edrim** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:40 am

cgalik wrote:edrim,
And I guess you're still mad at me and the rest of us for still trying to figure it out as a community how to best play LT37?

If you belive that caravans will be on in LT37 you are in mistacke thinking.
Caravans are evil and nobody wants to play a game with this mess again.

I will vote to set flag nobuild to caras and frigs. It is quite good to let players build wonders without help of caravans.

edrim · Post by **edrim** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:48 am

Drew wrote:Yes, if you have enough engineers on a boat to transform ocean to swamp in one turn, the 10 hour unitwaittime will not apply. I assume this happens for any unit that is "moved due to changing terrain" but I am not sure. I learned about this in LT35. Maybe I should have waited for a TC when Edrim was not online, to leave a little more mystery as to why ocean near him was changing into swamp

As I said, we are fighting here with RTS playing, especialy on TC, you are using bugs for it, even when you so criticise using caravans as a bug.
This is sad because nobody can prevent using this bug in this game anymore.
Happy RTS playing guys.

Post by **Corbeau** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:53 am

Ok, can someone describe what is actually going on here?

arkan · Post by **arkan** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:44 am

Well Edrim,
how can you frankly compare the importance of a minor TC exploit with the fact of having trade routes mistakenly enabled in this game??

I'll give you a clue to find out their difference.
One gives a very small advantage in some limited military / terraforming operation, while the other completely skews the game's strategy.
It has been reported in the other thread that a poor (and old :p) nation has researched 15 techs from Railroad to Mobile Warfare including Radio and Espionage in a single turn alone (T90)!
I'll let you find out by yourself which bug is the elephant in the room here...

Now it's good that you've reported that exploit to public knowledge, and we can thank you for doing so.
This looks indeed like an unwanted feature, and probably a bug in freeciv that will need to be fixed.
That said, to me the importance of it is no match for the trade bug that has slipped in in the LT36 ruleset.

edrim wrote:
I will vote to set flag nobuild to caras and frigs. It is quite good to let players build wonders without help of caravans.

I for one vote no to completely remove caravans in LT since I find them very convenient in helping to build wonders.
But I agree to have trade disabled as it skews the game too much, makes life even harder for players in poor map location and (I suppose) makes the game very tedious and time consuming for those players successful in the trade route business.

cgalik wrote:How was the reply? Pretty easy, and straight forward. Which is how the other post could have gone... but no... sad

I second that. Drew's reply got straight to the point.

edrim · Post by **edrim** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:20 pm

arkan wrote:Well Edrim,
how can you frankly compare the importance of a minor TC exploit with the fact of having trade routes mistakenly enabled in this game??

It is simple, for you this bug is a minor, for me not, when i am planing where can my enemy reach in one turn I am not able to predict that he will go 30 tiles or more.

Some players (Cgalik for eg.) ask to show how somebody get such big amount of techs in one turn, it is easy, once rr halves revenue of caravans player producing tons of caravans before rr and establish them in one city to get bonus from entrance only, then get some nice amount of bulbs which he can use - this player who was mentioned to get this hudge amount of bulbs is not researching 10 techs every turn, but better to accuse someone who is taking techs in pack then himself to use minor bugs.

In other hand, now I am writing to Cgalik team, did you found interesting bugs in ruleset that will let you win? I wrote my explanation how it can be done, now it is your turn, are you going to something specific and get this wining tech or just race to spaceship?

arkan · Post by **arkan** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:01 pm

edrim wrote: It is simple, for you this bug is a minor, for me not, when i am planing where can my enemy reach in one turn I am not able to predict that he will go 30 tiles or more.

Ok, I can understand that this can be rather annoying as you need to plan your defense accordingly and prepare for fast attack further into your land.

edrim wrote: Some players (Cgalik for eg.) ask to show how somebody get such big amount of techs in one turn, it is easy, once rr halves revenue of caravans player producing tons of caravans before rr and establish them in one city to get bonus from entrance only, then get some nice amount of bulbs which he can use - this player who was mentioned to get this hudge amount of bulbs is not researching 10 techs every turn, but better to accuse someone who is taking techs in pack then himself to use minor bugs.

Thanks for this explanation Edrim!
Now I must give kudos to the players who have come up with this strategy and have applied it so efficiently as it must have needed a well prepared plan and some logistical headache ;).

cgalik · Post by **cgalik** » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:12 am

edrim wrote: Caravans are evil and nobody wants to play a game with this mess again.

I will vote to set flag nobuild to caras and frigs. It is quite good to let players build wonders without help of caravans.

Agreed and interesting thought. I like the idea! Too much of the game is spending building the darn things to build wonders... then maybe wonders could be cheaper but would be riskier to build.

Post by **Corbeau** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:20 pm

How about wonders are reasonably cheap to build (close to ordinary city improvements), but expensive to maintain?

soon · Post by **soon** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:39 pm

Somehow it's a good news that we are all now speaking about "exploit" on "bugs".

I appreciate that!

As we are a *very* small community, let's try to get better on what we agree on...

I wish we can build for the future a new *code of conduct* how to react when a bug is discovered during a game. We all value our time here and the fun playing. Let's try to define together what would define a "bug" and what would be the right way to deal with it.

I'm not speaking about LT36 since it's old news now... but future games

My take:

- a bug would be defined as an opportunity to contradict a rule written explicitly on the forum or the ruleset.
- if somehow one finds a bug during a game, she/he has the responsibility to disclose it on the forum before the next turn.