How to research multiple techs in the same turn

[cgalik]

Hey LT community!

LT36 is so much fun. Thanks to wieder and akfaew for all your work and setup as admins!

It was a pretty fair and close game until recently. So as I eluded to in game chat, there is a way that the alliance that I am against has figured out how to research multiple techs in the middle of a turn. It probably related to trade routes. And the question is how? I've asked them so share their secrets, but they refuse, which I understand from a want-to-win mentality. But from a fairness perspective, I think everyone playing the game should know how to play the game in the same way. Of course this is easy for me to say, as I will surely lose to my opponents because they have figured something out well before I did. But maybe the rest of you will have a chance.

I'm not trying to start "forum wars", just trying to share best practices so that everyone has same tools in their belt.

I am not accusing anyone of cheating, not at all. The rulesets and code and everything is open. However, I don't make time for horsing around with test servers, or downloading the open ruleset and running and testing it myself. I'm guess that most of the LT players are like me: lazy and just want to play.

My apologies for throwing my opponents researching out there publically, but I tried for several turns to give them a chance to do it themselves. (I will also share what I have been researched to be consistent.)

My theory is the same trade route between the same city and the bonus keeps growing and growing? Anyone else care to test it out and share? I haven't completed 1 trade route yet, but you can bet I'll try. Could anyone confirm and help figure it out?

-cgalik

(T70 - 18:38:12) elrik has connected from IP (player Elrik).
(T70 - 18:43:53) wieder has connected from IP (player Wieder).
(T70 - 18:51:35) Lost connection: Kocurek from IP (read error) (player Kocurek).
(T70 - 18:53:12) The East Germans have researched Navigation.
(T70 - 18:58:44) Lost connection: wieder from IP (client disconnected) (player Wieder).

(T71 - 18:25:25) wieder has connected from IP (player Wieder).
(T71 - 18:37:17) The East Germans have researched Democracy.

(T73 - 20:29:07) Xercise has connected from IP (player Xercise).
(T73 - 20:36:33) akfaew has connected from IP (player Akfaew).
(T73 - 20:37:41) edrim has connected from IP (player Edrim).
(T73 - 20:44:55) The East Germans have researched Metallurgy.
(T73 - 20:50:23) The East Germans have researched Conscription.
(T73 - 20:55:07) Lost connection: akfaew from IP (client disconnected) (player Akfaew).
(T73 - 21:22:30) Lost connection: paavo from IP (client disconnected) (player Paavo).
(T73 - 21:27:55) Lost connection: Xercise from IP (read error) (player Xercise).
(T73 - 21:29:35) Lost connection: edrim from IP (client disconnected) (player Edrim).

(T74 - 22:52:21) nicemicro has connected from IP (player Nicemicro).
(T74 - 22:55:36) Lost connection: nicemicro from IP (read error) (player Nicemicro).
(T74 - 23:03:36) Lost connection: wieder from IP (client disconnected) (player Wieder).
(T74 - 23:03:52) wieder has connected from IP (player Wieder).
(T74 - 23:18:33) The East Germans have researched University.
(T74 - 23:19:15) The East Germans have researched Economics.
(T74 - 23:26:18) zorn has connected from IP (player Zorn).
(T74 - 23:50:07) cgalik has connected from IP (player Cgalik).
(T74 - 23:55:18) <Cgalik> : tip of the day... if you end the turn on a mountian you lose 1 MP next turn. *Unless* that mountian has a road on it.
(T74 - 23:56:04) <Cgalik> : I remember when wieder used to give tips of the day...
(T74 - 23:56:43) <Wieder>
(T74 - 23:56:45) <Cgalik> : wieder, do you have any tips to share?
(T74 - 23:56:48) teek has connected from IP (player Teek).
(T74 - 23:57:08) Lost connection: cgalik from IP (client disconnected) (player Cgalik).
(T74 - 23:57:58) <Wieder> Yeah. Do not irrigate grassland if you are running in despotism and do not have pyramids
(T74 - 23:59:10) Lost connection: teek from IP (client disconnected) (player Teek).
(T74 - 00:10:08) Lost connection: wieder from IP (client disconnected) (player Wieder).

(T74 - 08:45:50) Lost connection: elrik from IP (client disconnected) (player Elrik).
(T74 - 08:48:29) dvgo has connected from IP (player Dvgo).
(T74 - 08:52:01) The Babylonians have researched University.
(T74 - 09:01:39) Lost connection: dvgo from IP (read error) (player Dvgo).
(T74 - 09:05:59) Lost connection: zorn from IP (client disconnected) (player Zorn).

(T74 - 09:07:24) akfaew has connected from IP (player Akfaew).
(T74 - 09:10:05) Xercise has connected from IP (player Xercise).
(T74 - 09:10:35) Corbeau has connected from IP (player Corbeau).
(T74 - 09:14:35) Lost connection: Corbeau from IP (read error) (player Corbeau).
(T74 - 09:15:40) The East Germans have researched Chivalry.
(T74 - 09:15:44) The East Germans have researched Leadership.
(T74 - 09:16:10) zorn has connected from IP (player Zorn).
(T74 - 09:20:49) Lost connection: Xercise from IP (read error) (player Xercise).

(T75 - 21:36:24) zorn has connected from IP (player Zorn).
(T75 - 21:41:37) Lord_P has connected from IP (player Lord_P).
(T75 - 21:49:33) akfaew has connected from IP (player Akfaew).
(T75 - 22:07:33) Lost connection: Lord_P from IP (read error) (player Lord_P).
(T75 - 22:12:58) The East Germans have researched Tactics.
(T75 - 22:22:39) Lost connection: akfaew from IP (client disconnected) (player Akfaew).
(T75 - 22:36:36) Lost connection: zorn from IP (client disconnected) (player Zorn).
(T75 - 22:46:48) Lost connection: wieder from IP (client disconnected) (player Wieder).

(T76 - 16:59:05) dvgo has connected from IP (player Dvgo).
(T76 - 17:01:26) Corbeau has connected from IP (player Corbeau).
(T76 - 17:04:56) The Babylonians have researched Economics.
(T76 - 17:09:34) akfaew has connected from IP (player Akfaew).
(T76 - 17:10:46) Lost connection: dvgo from IP (read error) (player Dvgo).

(IP addresses taken out per request)

[cgalik]

And my research, all at TC:

(T71 - 19:04:07) Learned Metallurgy. Scientists do not know what to research next.
(T72 - 18:04:15) Learned The Republic. Scientists do not know what to research next.
(T74 - 16:04:28) Learned Physics. Scientists do not know what to research next.
(T75 - 15:04:38) Learned Chivalry. Scientists do not know what to research next.

[edrim]

As far as I remember: once you put more time to think about a game then you have more chance to win then players who has no time and play only 10 minutes per day.

But still your post is something not visible for ages, starting flame wars in time that game didn't even enter in end stage. This is something new.

[cgalik]

As far as I remember: once you put more time to think about a game then you have more chance to win then players who has no time and play only 10 minutes per day.

Completely agree. But maybe I can help the 10 minutes per day players.

But still your post is something not visible for ages, starting flame wars in time that game didn't even enter in end stage. This is something new.

Sorry, but I don't really understand what you mean.

[edrim]

Completely agree. But maybe I can help the 10 minutes per day players.

Sure, you can help them by killing them in a pack of wolf 8 vs 1, that is good lesson. 10 minutes a day, everyday.

Sorry, but I don't really understand what you mean.

I am sure you don't.

[pipo]

As far as I remember: once you put more time to think about a game then you have more chance to win then players who has no time and play only 10 minutes per day.

And this is a big part of the problem. If I remember, the original mission of Longturn was to be able to play freeciv 'without' spending too much time 'each day'.

Most of the changes we made to rulesets and software were targeting that goal.
Now you are saying it is ok that people who spend more time should have more chance. I say that is the reverse
of the original spirit.

But still your post is something not visible for ages, ...

This sounds very poetic but difficult to get on the first pass.

[pipo]

Sure, you can help them by killing them in a pack of wolf 8 vs 1, that is good lesson. 10 minutes a day, everyday.

Do you have a specific situation (player's name) in mind? Because I have seen this type of situations more than once in more than one game.
This is part of the basic doing, be stronger by number or be stronger by tech., there is no real strategy.
It is basically a race to big production or a race to high tech.
So it is down to a racing game not a game of strategy.

[HanduMan]

My theory is the same trade route between the same city and the bonus keeps growing and growing? Anyone else care to test it out and share? I haven't completed 1 trade route yet, but you can bet I'll try. Could anyone confirm and help figure it out?

No need to test, it's plain and simple. If your ruleset allows trade routes and if making or trying to make a route yields a one-time bonus then this sure is one logical explanation to that. You can keep feeding caravans into a city forever. Even if no trade route is established you still get the one-time bonus for trying. Gold and bulbs. If you haven't changed the default settings it can be thousands depending on distance between and current tarde revenue of the cities involved.

Of course, this can also be quite normal case of making new trade routes. You have a big map and lots of cities, no need to push all caravans into one.

+1 @ akfaew

[edrim]

We are doing everything to make this game simple to play in 10 minutes a day, but we cannot avoid spending more time for playing or planing, are you able to find a clue that will solve this problem? To simply align chance of winning for casual players vs players who spending hours in this game?

I was always against pack of wolfes, for me this is worst thing here, but it is still natural for players if they see pack of wolfes they group (natural consequence) to be able to defend against them. This is second problem here, even it was game with teams some teams may gang up against other.

[zorn]

It's frightening how seriously some players take the game and how much effort they make to optimize their civilizations. I'm not sure who discovered the trade route "feature", but I assume it was done by reading and understanding the ruleset. Wieder has said that he would have announced it publicly if he had discovered it himself, since apparently it was his mistake. However he had certain in-game politics was dragged along into doing what seems to be normal practice in these games, and taking advantage of it for all that it's worth. Personally i've always hated managing trade routes in Freeciv, and was happy to see that they were disabled in longturn, and it's a shame that they have returned in this way.

[cgalik]

It would have been a good idea to censor out the IPs so that google doesn't index them...

Fixed. Sorry about that.

I am sure you don't.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, which is the way you took it? Still don't understand... you're asking why it took me so long to post it? "This is something new?" Like this is new to this LT game, or something I did was new? Edrim, I know you hate "wolfpacks" and I think best to put that on it's own topic, as this one was trying to help everyone understand how best to play LT36.

[cgalik]

Been a good T76 for some nations!

[06:43:41] (T76 - 17:04:56) The Babylonians have researched Economics.
[06:43:41] (T76 - 19:24:12) The Babylonians have researched Chivalry.
[06:43:41] (T76 - 09:35:58) The Iranians have researched Democracy.
[06:43:41] (T76 - 09:41:34) The Iranians have researched Conscription.
[06:43:41] (T76 - 10:58:15) The Iranians have researched Chivalry.

You can keep feeding caravans into a city forever. Even if no trade route is established you still get the one-time bonus for trying. Gold and bulbs. If you haven't changed the default settings it can be thousands depending on distance between and current tarde revenue of the cities involved.

Yeah, so question is best way to get big bonuses is to keep trade routes from same 1 city or different cities?

[edrim]

I'm not trying to be a jerk, which is the way you took it? Still don't understand... you're asking why it took me so long to post it? "This is something new?" Like this is new to this LT game, or something I did was new? Edrim, I know you hate "wolfpacks" and I think best to put that on it's own topic, as this one was trying to help everyone understand how best to play LT36.

But still your post is something not visible for ages, starting flame wars in time that game didn't even enter in end stage. This is something new.

I have bold rest of sentence that is something new. Do not try to be in bad mood once someone will paste your tircks or list of wolfpack on forum in next games. This games are about tips and tricks, whoever start use new trick has always adventage.

In other hand it is good that you wrote it here, maybe some people will write you some tips how to get those techs in such radiculus rate. If not, maybe there will be no explenation after a game because of this topic. idk.

Mass caravan strategy is very good known in LT, maybe there is nothing in akfaew forum, but try to search something in maho's forum on archive.org there are plenty about it.

[HanduMan]

I assume it was done by reading and understanding the ruleset.

Really? How can you even play a civ game if you do not read and understand the ruleset involved?

Sorry, I am not playing LT36, but this conversation caught my eye and I Could not resist...

Trade routes, when included with default settings, are the plague of freeciv. They can be exploited to ridiculous amounts of bulbs and gold if one puts their mind to it. But this plague can be cured also without removing the routes altogether (as someone suggested in another thread). The one-time bonus from establishin a route is the worst. That could be set to give only a small amount of gold and bulbs, or nothing at all. Also the number of trade routes per city could be limited to 1 or 2 and the per-turn revenue set so that it might at maximum maybe double the trade of involved cities.

The chat log shows more than 75 turns played in LT36. Anyone who haven't yet made any trade routes should change all their unit productions into caravans. Although I'm afraid it's already too late.

[wieder]

First, I'll repeat what I said in the in-game chat.

The problem is that we have limited number of people doing the stuff and once the games begin, the admins are basically just normal players who need to play with everyone else. They will have to ally, fight and build the empire to stand the test of time just as everyone else. All the knowledge of the ruleset we had was released on the forum when the game started.

The ruleset is available to everyone to see. As we were guessing when the game started, there would be some surprises because of the 2.3 - 2.5 upgrade. The new 2.5 version has been stable even with all the ruleset changes but it will require some tuning for LT37. Even with all the test games not all features and "features" were tested before the game was started. I encourage people to study the ruleset and figure out how it works. No player or admin knows everything about this game and what it comes to actual gameplay the lone wolfs are usually killed first.

That's what I posted on the in-game chat.

Zorn now told you what I told to him when I was talking about this with him.

-- ** --

I should probably prepare instructions for testing the ruleset on a local computer with less than 10 minutes needed for that. Basically all that's needed is downloading the ruleset from the link, saving it on the game directory. After that starting a single player game with the ruleset and pressing ctrl+e (edit mode) for testing stuff. From there you can test different kinds of setups in just few minutes. Of course the goal would be planning a game without a need for doing that.

The problem with testing the ruleset is that there are an insane number of settings and combinations to test. None of us probably has enough time for testing it all. Luck will help with that but also if you can think out of the box. People working with the ruleset can easily become blind to some features they are not focusing on and in that case those features are left for someone else to find. Assuming that there are some to be found.

I'm sorry that an unintended feature was left to the ruleset and it was not found until relatively late in the game. I didn't find this one and was also unable to talk about it because of the in-game relations.

[Temmikael]

Who use that caravan system inform that. its fair all of us to know who uses that
. its not illegal but near darkgrey side.

[Corbeau]

Howdy y'all. It seems there is a small amount of bad blood around here which is always bad, and from my experience it almost always comes from not understanding properly what is in other people's heads. The problem may be that some people don't want to understand, but I guess there is nothing that can be done about that.

As for the topic, in essence, I have absolutely nothing against the idea of trade routes. The concept of converting production into trade simply gives an additional strategy and a wider set of options which is good for any game, and for Civilization it is a must. What can be discussed is balancing things out and preventing this one strategy to become a win button. It is not a trivial task and would take some time, effort and cooperation. Until that happens, we go with what we have and, as long as everybody is on equal footing here, no grudges should be held.

However, what I think was slightly unfair here is that a number of people were playing under the assumption that trade routes are disabled and that others, after discovering they weren't, didn't share the information. No, RTFM doesn't apply here; firstly, it was a reasonable assumption due to a all recent games being played withouit it (correct me if I'm wrong). Secondly, not everybody is equally versed with reading the game settings, especially since there are, as Wieder nicely put it, an "insane number of settings and combinations to test". Thirdly, this *is* a game-breaking feature and if you don't know about it, and you would be likely using it if you could, it can screw you up very much.

Also, "was also unable to talk about it because of the in-game relations" doesn't apply either. This is not an in-game information, like "someone is close to having nukes" or "X and Y are allies". This is about a ruleset. When playing basketball, I would want to inform my opponent that you can also score three-pointers. He may not use this information because he is better at dribbling and short-range stuff, but he needs to have full information about the game we are all playing. I don't want to beat someone because he didn't read the news, but because I know I'm better at managing the ball. Nothing else was needed except a note: Unlike the previous games, trade routes are now enabled, and let everyone make out of it whatever they want. Simply, this is not some curious side-quirk like "horsemen use 1/2 AP when travelling on roads". Like I said, this is a game-breaking feature.

If you guys fear that revealing this information would also reveal your current strategy, you can always wrap it up somehow. "Hey, get this, my caravan entered a city in order to help build <false information about a wonder> and I got the option to establish a trade route." Or, alternatively, send this information to someone whose discretion you trust and let him publish it.

All that said, the point of this post is not to blame people but to try to establish some rules of conduct for future games. What's done is done, can't be undone etc. Mistakes happen and there will be further games giving oportunities to get even (hopefully, in a sportsmanlike fashion).

[soon]

I mostly agree with what Corbeau just said (but only the bonus for traderoute are concerned here not traderoutes themselves as far as I understood the thread).

There is a difference between a game/ruleset feature and a game/ruleset bug!

If someone would discover a combination of shift_crl keys keys that would give infinite movement to units I guess everyone would expect the player discovering it to report it, not exploit it. Because it's clearly a bug, not a feature.

Here, we are not in the case of someone that doesn't use the feature that trireme goes up rivers, because of insufficient testing/reading. Since everyone logically assumed that bonus for traderoute doesn't exist in LT36 (because of history of longturn and because they was no word about it during the preparation of the game), I consider their existence a bug in the ruleset, not a feature that people would be at fault to ignore.

So I would also have expect that the first noticing this caravan bonus bug to just report it to everyone.
I'm a bit sad because this thing is a bit spoiling the fun we all have with this game.

But what is done is done. What are the options now ?

1) everyone exploit this from now on? that is going to be a really fast tech game.

2) server stop and unactivated this in code before restart? Is that even possible ?

[robotis]

Just caught up on the explanation of what's going on. Like Soon, I see this as an exploited bug. (Behavior was contrary to the declared ruleset.) My reaction is that the game's become a bit less fun now. I doubt that what has happened can be undone, so I suggest we advertise the behavior (if that's even needed now) and limp on to the end of the game.

Thanks for playing with me, everyone.
Tim Klein

[Drew]

Where in the ruleset is it evident that trade routes are activated? In units.ruleset (LT36) under Caravans I see:

flags = "TradeRoute", "HelpWonder", "NonMil", "Capturable"

whereas in LT35 the same line in units.ruleset (LT35) reads

flags = "HelpWonder", "NonMil", "Capturable"

Is this all there is to it? Is there something else that enables trade routes with allies but disables trade routes between one's own cities?

-Drew

[edrim]

Nice.
First of all we are not changing rules once game has been started.
If only couple of players tested ruleset rest of them should blem themselfs not to check how next game will be and what's new in 2.5.
There were so many other tricks (I am calling them legal exploits), such teleporting units from one part of board to another, tech trading via city even if techtrading was disabled, password sharing, TC double moves, spending 24h/day in game, automatic moves, etc.
Once someone is inviting new good trick (exploit), he may have a hudge chance to win a game. If community says it is a win button we are trying to switch it off.
You may accusition players (me?) that can use caravans, if you are think it is eveil do not use them, show that you are above this exploit and play without caravans still, it may show others what is a proper way.
When I dont like something and think it is not right I am not using it, even if I could have better chance to win. No big deal.

I think I was the man who has found that caravans are something more then usual, it was in time when everybody researched a Trade tech and show it to other started and stopped built MarcoPolo Embassy. I thought: "Whats wrong with this tech if everybody shows that they have it already", I have clicked in research screen on Trade and saw caravans on Trade tech. It is not very clever to check if caravans has ability to establish routes or not.
So, please do not write about reading ruleset with getting secret information from it. Only man who has read it was wieder, but imo he wasn't able to read with full understanding if he passed it. We are all to lazy to read documentation at all, some of us can find some specyfic information about specyfic unit or building, but nobody read it at all.
Game was announced as a bug-like, but as I wrote we are not changing rules if option could be used in this game already, we can chage some settings but only if they are not be able to be used in this game already.

Once game has started admins become players, and play and treat others like players not admins. There would be not funny game if we stay as an admins in game. One game we are all in one pack, other we are separate. Usually players joined together everytime (because they known each other), it was even a Church nearly LT30, when gossip says that it was an ally from game to game, we have a lot of fun and some flame wars about it but still we are friends and nobody cares about "The Church" or maybe there is The Church still draining caravans from very beggining.

In the last word: If you know me or not - I dont like Wolfpacks, if there are a wolfpack or two I am spending much more time to win with them, then other simply games. If you group in pack more then usual couple of players prepare that you cannot think you are safe, because sheeps are going to be evil in this situation.

[bamskamp]

I take responsibility for not taking this statement at face value:

http://forum.longturn.org/viewtopic.php?id=612

Caravans can't establish trade routes (was like this in the pervious LT games)

I agree it is difficult to make sure all of the changes are consistent - I remember creating a ruleset that was riddled with errors.

However, I am slightly disappointed that there were those that wished to have a fair and balanced game, and their win will hinge on a tactic that directly contradicts this stated ruleset change. An announcement of an unintended [bug/feature] could have helped accomplish the first goal and would have made the loss more bearable.

I'm not calling anyone a cheater or claiming that the rules should be changed mid-game, but to deny that this has cheapened the game is a bit disingenuous.

[edrim]

Anyone wants to create ruleset for LT38? Starting from multiplayer, because wieders ruleset may include some bugs we don't know even existed.
AFAIR nobody wanted this job and we may stuck in 2.3, but now everybody are so fragile about bugs and using them.
If someone will find something usefull in his future reulesets you will crusified him again and again? Or it will be only when specyfic players (not in your wolfpack) will find a way to easy win.

Anyone from crusifiders has tested this ruleset in test game? Hands up who has tested it, maybe only those people may have credential to spoil pleasure of playing.

Now everybody are so clever and righteous.

For you it should look like that: <wieder> hey guys our nap is ending in 20 turns, but you may not know there are caravans involved into science, so get your wolfpack together, max your sci and kill us in a way of glory.

Remember nobody wants to deal and help alliances that have more players in then average in board, so why anybody should sell this information to you?

After all we thought you knew that caravans are on because of this showing Marco Polo wonder again and again.

[soon]

I think everyone is thankful to Wieder for his hard work setting up this ruleset. And indeed bugs have to be expected sometimes and I read no one trying put the blame on him for the existence of a bug.

That's not the problem it seems. The problem is the attitude if someone find a bug (opposed to a feature as underlined by Corbeau, Bamskamp or me).

But it's also clear we won't find a consensus on this question... So let's continue to play (with a bit less of fun: i personally don't like capturing remote caravans as a strategic baseline).

nb: having testing and logged in the testing game, reading the forum and ruleset and being in in the smallest alliance of this game, i may qualify to speak