What new changes made LT35 better and what should be changed for the next game?
Should some advanced unit need to have less moves in the future games? More expensive/less expensive units? Something else made easier/harder to get or do?
Comments about the ruleset
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Drew
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- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Overall I thought the ruleset was great, but here are my opinions on a few specifics:
The thing that confused me was that Barracks I cost 60, while Barracks II and III cost 30. I would think it would make more sense to have the price of barracks increase as productive capacities increase. Maybe have them cost 60, 90, and 120 instead?
I thought maybe the Courthouse was a little too expensive. It's such an important building to get in a new city to have some return on investment, and very frustrating that it sometimes took so long to complete. Maybe even possibly decreasing it to 50 would be enough, though I welcome any opposing opinions.
Two things I thought might have been underpriced were Leonardo's Workshop and armor, at least for this game, when virtually everything was connected by land.
Speaking of armor, I failed to see any advantage of building howitzers instead of armor, as armor already has a firepower of 2 and can be built as a veteran (effective attack of 15) while howitzers could only be built green with an attack of 12. Maybe some change to either make howitzers stronger or armor weaker could make this decision more interesting.
The thing that confused me was that Barracks I cost 60, while Barracks II and III cost 30. I would think it would make more sense to have the price of barracks increase as productive capacities increase. Maybe have them cost 60, 90, and 120 instead?
I thought maybe the Courthouse was a little too expensive. It's such an important building to get in a new city to have some return on investment, and very frustrating that it sometimes took so long to complete. Maybe even possibly decreasing it to 50 would be enough, though I welcome any opposing opinions.
Two things I thought might have been underpriced were Leonardo's Workshop and armor, at least for this game, when virtually everything was connected by land.
Speaking of armor, I failed to see any advantage of building howitzers instead of armor, as armor already has a firepower of 2 and can be built as a veteran (effective attack of 15) while howitzers could only be built green with an attack of 12. Maybe some change to either make howitzers stronger or armor weaker could make this decision more interesting.
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wieder
- Member
- Posts: 1781
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Thanks for the feedback!
The barracks may have been confusing but there was a reason why it was like that and not the other way around. We only had the Leonardo's in the last few LT games and while that's a fun and interesting wonder it has been too easy to get too much advantage from it. Basically lots of players built plenty of warriors and then waited for Leonardo to upgrade them. To make that slightly harder the Barracks I were made more expensive so that you would have to use more resources for building the warriors or let the Leonardo to upgrade green warriors. If Leonardo was still too powerful and we try to simply make it slightly less powerful we could either make the Barracks I to cost more (maybe 70 instead of 60) or to make Leonardo's to cost something like 50-100 more shields to build. Yeah, this may be confusing indeed. We could have Leonardo's upgrading just one unit/turn but somehow that feels like too extreme.
We could make courthouses to cost 50, 45 or even 40 instead of 60. That makes sense really. Less expensive courthouses promote far away colonies. Very important with huge maps.
Armor had more firepower than usual and for LT36 it will have FP 1 instead of FP2.
The barracks may have been confusing but there was a reason why it was like that and not the other way around. We only had the Leonardo's in the last few LT games and while that's a fun and interesting wonder it has been too easy to get too much advantage from it. Basically lots of players built plenty of warriors and then waited for Leonardo to upgrade them. To make that slightly harder the Barracks I were made more expensive so that you would have to use more resources for building the warriors or let the Leonardo to upgrade green warriors. If Leonardo was still too powerful and we try to simply make it slightly less powerful we could either make the Barracks I to cost more (maybe 70 instead of 60) or to make Leonardo's to cost something like 50-100 more shields to build. Yeah, this may be confusing indeed. We could have Leonardo's upgrading just one unit/turn but somehow that feels like too extreme.
We could make courthouses to cost 50, 45 or even 40 instead of 60. That makes sense really. Less expensive courthouses promote far away colonies. Very important with huge maps.
Armor had more firepower than usual and for LT36 it will have FP 1 instead of FP2.
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cgalik
- Member
- Posts: 279
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Sorry for the late feedback!
I would oppose Barracks I or Leo's costing more. Both of these are must builds and that just slows down the game by making them more expensive.
Yes, I would love courthouses cheaper too as with big maps corruption is just horrible, even with courthouses! I know that 2nd palace will help this, so that is good too. Anyways I'm just trying to get more action and less turns of just building...
We should make separate topic on 2nd palace to answer questions such as: Does it prevent city from being bribed? How much does it cost to build? What governments can build it? (might be already answered)
I think cruise missiles should be improved. They only have 10 HP and by that stage of the game armor and ships have 30 HP. Or maybe increase missiles FP?
Fighters became pretty much a non factor because of their limited range. I know the history of it previously too many moves, but 15 moves (or 16 if vet) basically is 7 or 8 tiles from a city isn't much in an age of rails. Maybe increase to 20?
I like armor's FP at 2.
Also, airports were not working in the game. I could not airlift from one airport to another.
I would oppose Barracks I or Leo's costing more. Both of these are must builds and that just slows down the game by making them more expensive.
Yes, I would love courthouses cheaper too as with big maps corruption is just horrible, even with courthouses! I know that 2nd palace will help this, so that is good too. Anyways I'm just trying to get more action and less turns of just building...
We should make separate topic on 2nd palace to answer questions such as: Does it prevent city from being bribed? How much does it cost to build? What governments can build it? (might be already answered)
I think cruise missiles should be improved. They only have 10 HP and by that stage of the game armor and ships have 30 HP. Or maybe increase missiles FP?
Fighters became pretty much a non factor because of their limited range. I know the history of it previously too many moves, but 15 moves (or 16 if vet) basically is 7 or 8 tiles from a city isn't much in an age of rails. Maybe increase to 20?
I like armor's FP at 2.
Also, airports were not working in the game. I could not airlift from one airport to another.
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wieder
- Member
- Posts: 1781
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Thanks for the comments! We can make changes until the game starts.
I have kept the cost of the barracks the same they were on LT35 (60 shields) but increased the cost of Leo's from 300 to 350. You are right about the Leo being a must to build. I'll try to figure out if there would be another way to discourage to people just building tons of warriors. The problem is that I would like to allow the warriors to be built as veterans but that's of course another way to solve this problem.
I changed the courts to cost 45 instead of 60. Maybe we should go even cheaper or would that be too much?
"We should make separate topic on 2nd palace to answer questions such as: Does it prevent city from being bribed? How much does it cost to build? What governments can build it? (might be already answered)"
Yes, it should prevent bribing the city. If a city it's in is conquered there is no chance for civil wars. It will cost 180 but it could be cheaper. One "problem" with the cost is that the city can't be bribed. It costs that much to prevent the attacked to (cheaply) build a new 2nd palace to the new conquered cities where the entire army is. Then again if this is not a real problem we could make it cheaper?? All the governments can build it.
The cruise missiles get double firepower when used against a city but I agree they are kind of weak when used elsewhere. How about this? Making them to cost 50% of what they cost today but making them also a bit less powerful? The idea would be allowing the players to actually fill the subs with plenty of cruise missiles (subs can take up to 8) and launching a cruise missile storm against the enemy That way they would be more powerful for the same price. Another option would be making them more powerful but removing the citybuster flag.
Were you able to use carriers for the fighters? How about making carriers less expensive? Of course we can add few moves to the fighters.
About the armors. I changed the firepower from 2 to 1 because it was said that they made howizers obsolete. How about adding some attack points instead? Or maybe removing some attack points and switching FP to 2? That way they would be more a bit more powerful.
The airports were not working? Strange. I thought I didn't change anything there. That needs testing. They didn't work at all or from allied cities?
I have kept the cost of the barracks the same they were on LT35 (60 shields) but increased the cost of Leo's from 300 to 350. You are right about the Leo being a must to build. I'll try to figure out if there would be another way to discourage to people just building tons of warriors. The problem is that I would like to allow the warriors to be built as veterans but that's of course another way to solve this problem.
I changed the courts to cost 45 instead of 60. Maybe we should go even cheaper or would that be too much?
"We should make separate topic on 2nd palace to answer questions such as: Does it prevent city from being bribed? How much does it cost to build? What governments can build it? (might be already answered)"
Yes, it should prevent bribing the city. If a city it's in is conquered there is no chance for civil wars. It will cost 180 but it could be cheaper. One "problem" with the cost is that the city can't be bribed. It costs that much to prevent the attacked to (cheaply) build a new 2nd palace to the new conquered cities where the entire army is. Then again if this is not a real problem we could make it cheaper?? All the governments can build it.
The cruise missiles get double firepower when used against a city but I agree they are kind of weak when used elsewhere. How about this? Making them to cost 50% of what they cost today but making them also a bit less powerful? The idea would be allowing the players to actually fill the subs with plenty of cruise missiles (subs can take up to 8) and launching a cruise missile storm against the enemy
That way they would be more powerful for the same price. Another option would be making them more powerful but removing the citybuster flag.Were you able to use carriers for the fighters? How about making carriers less expensive? Of course we can add few moves to the fighters.
About the armors. I changed the firepower from 2 to 1 because it was said that they made howizers obsolete. How about adding some attack points instead? Or maybe removing some attack points and switching FP to 2? That way they would be more a bit more powerful.
The airports were not working? Strange. I thought I didn't change anything there. That needs testing. They didn't work at all or from allied cities?
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wieder
- Member
- Posts: 1781
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Basically I'm afraid that carriers will replace cruisers as escort ships. They are already really powerful and not that expensive. Did anyone use carriers or is it possible people missed those in LT35? Maybe adding moves to fighters is the easiest way of doing this.
[unit_carrier]
build_cost = 160
pop_cost = 0
attack = 0
defense = 18
hitpoints = 40
firepower = 2
move_rate = 15
vision_radius_sq = 72
transport_cap = 8
[unit_cruiser]
build_cost = 65
pop_cost = 0
attack = 4
defense = 8
hitpoints = 30
firepower = 1
move_rate = 15
vision_radius_sq = 72
[unit_carrier]
build_cost = 160
pop_cost = 0
attack = 0
defense = 18
hitpoints = 40
firepower = 2
move_rate = 15
vision_radius_sq = 72
transport_cap = 8
[unit_cruiser]
build_cost = 65
pop_cost = 0
attack = 4
defense = 8
hitpoints = 30
firepower = 1
move_rate = 15
vision_radius_sq = 72
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cgalik
- Member
- Posts: 279
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
45 is better for courthouse, sounds lets keep it there.
Carriers didn't really get used. I had one and dvgo spend 3 subs or more attacking it and didn't win. Submarines were surprisingly weak. I think they need a bump or cruisers a bump down. Vet cruisers were practically unsinkable without multiple attacks. So they were parked right off my coast for around 20 turns.
180 for 2nd palace is about good to discourage constant relocation. I think maybe even 150 would be fine too.
Yeah armor a little less attack but FP 2 sounds fine to keep howitzers in the game.
Carriers didn't really get used. I had one and dvgo spend 3 subs or more attacking it and didn't win. Submarines were surprisingly weak. I think they need a bump or cruisers a bump down. Vet cruisers were practically unsinkable without multiple attacks. So they were parked right off my coast for around 20 turns.
180 for 2nd palace is about good to discourage constant relocation. I think maybe even 150 would be fine too.
Yeah armor a little less attack but FP 2 sounds fine to keep howitzers in the game.