More naval activity

Post by **wieder** » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:57 pm

One of the complains about the previous games was that it's too expensive to build a navy. At least compared to what you can do with a navy.

How would you feel about cutting roughly 50% of the costs of the ships and giving the units more moves? With more moves I was thinking about 3 additional ones. A trireme would move 12 tiles instead of 9 and this would be the same +3 for all of the ships.

I haven't added a Trello card yet but I will if someone can't figure out why this shouldn't be done.

mmm2 · Post by **mmm2** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:50 am

caravel, trireme: 30 shields
frigate, iron clad, destroyer: 40 sheilds
cruiser: 50 shields
transporter: 50 shields
submarine: 70 shields
aegis cruiser: 70 shields
carrier: 90 shields
battleship: 90 shields
lighthouse: all triremes, caravels, and frigates are veteran
magellans expedition: 6x tiles more movement for all ships

I made the suggestion that we could make LT34 or some LT in the future a map with much greater proportion of ocean, so that there are strategic islands, ocean battles, etc. In every game that I've played there are very small gaps, and since transporter can move 15 tiles, there is no strategic importance of occupying ocean tiles. Also, if u could see the game log files, you would probably see that 99% of units are land, 1% are sea units, and 0% are air units. Why not cheapen the price of unused units to give incentive for players to build them? otherwise, game is always the predictable same units built by all players every time...

mmm2 · Post by **mmm2** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:51 am

also would you really pay 160 shields for a battleship? lol.. yes it has serious hitting power, but with 30 hit points, once it's injured out in the open it takes forever to get back to city for healing, and is sitting duck for submarines... nobody who is serious will pay 160 for a battleship...

kevin551 · Post by **kevin551** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:48 am

In Lt32 the two naval units extensively used by the winning team were transports and submarines. I did not consider them overpriced. I do not think extending their range is a good idea.
The use of aircraft was far less but was not zero.
I think creating a greater variety of games is a good thing. I prefer the single big land continent but if others want a big ocean then go for it.

NeverMind · Post by **NeverMind** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:48 am

I agree with kevin551 and akfaew. However, I really like the mmm2's idea about a map with much larger proportion of water. Big oceans, small and distant islands, naval and air battles for them... I like to play such kind of game once.

Post by **wieder** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:42 am

I'm wondering why the naval units are not used that often and it's not common to have large scale naval battles. If it looks like that the naval units already have correct values, I'm not going to push this idea too hard but somehow it would be nice to see more activity there.

evan · Post by **evan** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:11 am

Personally i feel that having less MPs would make naval units more useable. In the normal game you can use a navy to control and block the seas, but with such high MPs it's very easy for a ship to get by, and it's more a question of luck.
I think the cost is about right though, these are enormous ships, carriers too. The first time i saw a carrier it didn't seem real, it's size is just so out of proportion to anything else on the water. And Sydney gets the big freighters too in our port, so i'd seen big ships before, and gone alongside them in the ferry, but the carriers look like an optical illusion.

Post by **Corbeau** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:53 am

There should be ZOC for ships, too. Well, ideally, there should be a different mechanism for settling it, but we don't have it so ZOC is second best. Makes more sense regarding convoys, for example.

As for price, the whole problem is that production costs for all units in Civ are bloated out of proportion. Five turns to create a riflemen unit? Come on?! You get some men, you train them, six months at most. Now, *maintaining* them, that's a different matter.

edrim · Post by **edrim** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:17 am

Corbeau wrote:There should be ZOC for ships, too. Well, ideally, there should be a different mechanism for settling it, but we don't have it so ZOC is second best. Makes more sense regarding convoys, for example.

As for price, the whole problem is that production costs for all units in Civ are bloated out of proportion. Five turns to create a riflemen unit? Come on?! You get some men, you train them, six months at most. Now, *maintaining* them, that's a different matter.

Come on, I can produce 2 rifles from couple of my cities:) +100prod

Wieder should have much bigger production once he has cities size 35

Lord_P · Post by **Lord_P** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:12 pm

In general I agree with Corbeau, units should be cheaper to build relative to city improvements etc, but maintaining a large standing army should start to put noticable pressure on your state.
Cheaper units would mean more activity each turn, more use of different types of units combined (Kind of required by this ruleset) and more fun..
Maybe the price should rise steeper for the more advanced late game techs.

The only thing I would change about naval units is to make destroyers 5 attack-5 defence not 4-4 (Cruiser is 6-6). Currently they are kind of obselete before they are built and ineffective in their intended anti sub role, even with the double defence.