Longturn.net

Nimrod

Player

From: Montreal, Canada

Posts: 58

Re: LT33 ruleset

Nice, thanks Wieder !

I'll check the tree shortly, but quick question: you say 3x moves, so I presume 3x vision also ?

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"Shhh ! I'm hunting wabbitts ... "
                  NIMROD
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Corbeau

Administrator

Posts: 1,025

Re: LT33 ruleset

3x moves? Isn't that a bit too much?

edrim

Ganoes Paran

Posts: 479

Re: LT33 ruleset

3x moves? Isn't that a bit too much?

When you need to wait 23 hours for next move, belive me, it isn't to much.

We have once x1 movement game, it wasnt worth and we have abandoned it after couple turns.

Nimrod

Player

From: Montreal, Canada

Posts: 58

Re: LT33 ruleset

I understand Corbeau's reaction. Almost 99% of games played on GT were 2x games, even on very big maps. So yeah, 3x seems a bit much too. However, I don't know exactly how big these maps will be for LT33, so maybe it's justified...

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"Shhh ! I'm hunting wabbitts ... "
                  NIMROD
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taulover

Player

From: California, United States

Posts: 30

Re: LT33 ruleset

I'm not sure about GT, but in the LT games that I've played, 3x seems like the right move count.

Lord_P

Player

Posts: 166

Re: LT33 ruleset

Its the balance between movement and view range that is important. I think vision range is also greater in these rules.
In my opinion it shouldnt be possible to move from just outside a cities vision range to attack it with infantry or cannons (Cavalry is fine thats the point of building them). Players should get one turn to spot the enemy and respond before a huge stack of cannons wipes them out

akfaew

Administrator

Posts: 622

Re: LT33 ruleset

changes to wonders:
https://github.com/longturn/games/commi … 4ee026fe14 - a. smiths
https://github.com/longturn/games/commi … eccec9f80b - leonardo
https://github.com/longturn/games/commi … 103775dd24 - marco polo
https://github.com/longturn/games/commi … 9e5beafc68 - michelangelos chapel

also set diplcost=25 - gold and tech transfers now add a 25% cost to the receiver

akfaew

Administrator

Posts: 622

Re: LT33 ruleset

https://github.com/longturn/games/commi … 29abf984b0 - rework missile mps a little bit

Nimrod

Player

From: Montreal, Canada

Posts: 58

Re: LT33 ruleset

Its the balance between movement and view range that is important. I think vision range is also greater in these rules.
In my opinion it shouldnt be possible to move from just outside a cities vision range to attack it with infantry or cannons (Cavalry is fine thats the point of building them). Players should get one turn to spot the enemy and respond before a huge stack of cannons wipes them out

I couldn't agree more. Quite right!

Anyhow, I've downloaded the ruleset files and started practicing locally. It's a bit of an adjustment to have 3x movement and vision, plus city sizes are much bigger than expected. Also saw that city min dist is 5... guess there's a certain hatred for smallpoxers, eh? Seriously though, I suppose these settings encourage faster games (not just in terms of movement, but in terms of civ development).

One positive thing that I'd like to say is that it's much, much easier to simply grab the necessary .ruleset and .serv files and start playing right away against the AI in order to practice. Whatever you folks have been doing to tweak the files, it's just right! I only had to REM out a few settings (such as the "startnow" setting at the end of the .serv file). On GT we had to actually load up a server instance and invoke the ruleset, then connect using the client. So much nicer to simply do it all on your client given that the practice will be completely local anyway

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"Shhh ! I'm hunting wabbitts ... "
                  NIMROD
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akfaew

Administrator

Posts: 622

Re: LT33 ruleset

Nimrod, after playing longturn for many years it's natural to forget what is different and what is natural. Maybe you can write up a bit of a "what's different" text that I can paste to http://longturn.org/intro/

akfaew

Administrator

Posts: 622

Re: LT33 ruleset

https://github.com/longturn/games/commi … 3801eeae14 make fanatics like in multiplayer, not civ2civ3
https://github.com/longturn/games/commi … b2c20cbfce settlers, workers and engineers are now capturable

akfaew

Administrator

Posts: 622

Re: LT33 ruleset

https://github.com/longturn/games/commi … af0887d468 add unit class Big Siege, includes catas, cannons, arts and howies

- catas, cannons, arts and howies cannot take cities, and are now capturable!

kevin551

Player

Posts: 360

Re: LT33 ruleset

Hmmm I notice in your diff files that you are using effect types not names.
This change was introduced after version 2.3.5 and does not work in the 2.3 series. It will give an error  - lists unknown effect type "(null)".
Is the longturn server patched so that this will work?
It certainly makes it easier to update the ruleset later if the changes are already made.

akfaew

Administrator

Posts: 622

Re: LT33 ruleset

Last chance to submit ideas. Test game starts on Monday.

kevin551

Player

Posts: 360

Re: LT33 ruleset

Suggestion 1 - Reduce veteran_work_raise_chance It is currently too high, too many high value workers and engineers are created.
veteran_work_raise_chance = 9, 6, 6, 6, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 0
The aim is that by the end of a long game 200+ turns there should only be 1 or 2 'star' workers.

Suggestion 2 - Revert Civ2Civ3 terrain alterations back to default. I suggested this for LT32 http://forum.longturn.org/viewtopic.php?id=324

akfaew

Administrator

Posts: 622

Re: LT33 ruleset

Kevin, your second point is good, I'll make the changes. I'm not so sure about the first point, at the end of LW1 I had only 3 star workers.

Kryon

Administrator

Posts: 370

Re: LT33 ruleset

Are we sure we want to play with city trading on?

Last edited by Kryon (2014-07-12 12:08:33)

akfaew

Administrator

Posts: 622

Re: LT33 ruleset

It seems nobody except me likes city trading. So I'll probably disable it.

mmm2

Player

Posts: 608

Re: LT33 ruleset

It seems nobody except me likes city trading. So I'll probably disable it.

I like city trading, but only slight abuse can be teleporting by cancelling alliance and having units moved to nearest home city..

another abuse: without Elrik's patch what will stop players from cancelling alliance and taking/retaking cities to steal techs?

kevin551

Player

Posts: 360

Re: LT33 ruleset

.. at the end of LW1 I had only 3 star workers.

LW1 was a short game. There should have been none at all. How many 'star' military units did you get? In LT32 Wieder was the only player to get a 'star' military unit. It is more of an achievement if you get something special than getting something that everyone has quite a few of.

mmm2

Player

Posts: 608

Re: LT33 ruleset

.. at the end of LW1 I had only 3 star workers.

LW1 was a short game. There should have been none at all. How many 'star' military units did you get? In LT32 Wieder was the only player to get a 'star' military unit. It is more of an achievement if you get something special than getting something that everyone has quite a few of.

The main cheat with workers is being able to make road onto a hill,forest, or swamp with 4 movements, with moves to spare for making road. Starred workers are usually preserved by aggressive players for making roads into frontier. With them you can take 2 steps on grass plus another step onto a hill and still have 1/3 move left to make fort/road to connect into enemy infrastructure. This is even worst if enemy has road, then you can take 6 steps on road, and connect hill with road with 1/3 move left.

So we should fix this I think. Players should at least need to research engineers for building roads onto heavy terrain..

solution #1: make hills, forests, and swamps require 6 moves instead of 4 so this is not possible anymore.
solution #2: make workers have default of 1 move, so then starred worker would only have 4 1/3 move instead of 6 1/3.
solution #?: insert better idea here.

Last edited by mmm2 (2014-07-12 15:14:55)

wieder

Administrator

Posts: 1,863

Re: LT33 ruleset

It's probable that people will be getting engineers as soon as possible in LT33 because now you can terraform with those. In LT31 and LT32 that was not possible and it rendered explosives almost useless tech assuming you had enough promoted workers. However with terraforming abilities enabled the importance of promoted units becomes even bigger since cities can be surrounded with tiles with a great defensive value.

In lt32 we made several tc roads reaching the enemy city but now that seems much harder given that the defender changed for example desert into something taking lots of moves. In lt32 that was not possible.

kevin551

Player

Posts: 360

Re: LT33 ruleset

Starred workers are usually preserved by aggressive players for making roads into frontier.

Yes that was Terror's tactic in LT32.  You will need to think harder next game if you want to avoid the same outcome.

kevin551

Player

Posts: 360

Re: LT33 ruleset

mmm2's comment is stupid on so many levels that I will respond again in order to clear up confusion.

Firstly to explain the situation to people not used to the Longturn rules. Longturn uses ten veteran levels. (green plus nine more)  Each level adds an extra 1/3 move. On the map promoted units are shown with chevrons one for each additional level until you reach the top level when a star is used. The 'star' unit has been promoted 9 times and thus has 3 additional moves. The total moves for a star worker is 3+3=6. (Not 6 1/3)

The veteran system is not 'cheating' it is a standard part of longturn rules. A star rifleman also has 6 moves. It is not cheating to move such a unit like cavalry. The Longturn veteran system also increases the power factor of units. A 'star' unit has both its attack and defence increased by 350%. A star rifleman will have a defence of 14 and 6 moves. It can move onto a swamp and fortify immediately creating a defensive position that is really hard to kill. This is not cheating.

The point of lowering the number of star workers is that no-one has ever made a star rifleman.

akfaew

Administrator

Posts: 622

Re: LT33 ruleset

kevin, what values would you propose? A soldiers promotion is calculated with every battle. A workers promotion is calculated essentially every turn. Maybe let's try lowering every value by one:
veteran_work_raise_chance = 8, 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 3, 2, 0
and see what happens.