The in-game voting is still abusable...

[munk]

(T46 - 02:47:51) New vote (number 1) by terror: cut aloril (needs 51% in favor).
(T46 - 02:49:58) Terror set to away mode.
(T46 - 02:50:00) Terror returned to game.
(T46 - 02:50:19) New vote (number 2) by terror: hard (needs 51% in favor).
(T46 - 02:50:25) New vote (number 3) by terror: cheating (needs 51% in favor).
(T46 - 02:50:38) New vote (number 4) by terror: cheating (needs 51% in favor).
(T46 - 02:55:13) Lost connection: cgalik from 108-90-245-33.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net (client disconnected) (player Cgalik).
(T46 - 02:57:40) Duncan_Shriek has connected from 188-192-68-117-dynip.superkabel.de (player Duncan_Shriek).
(T46 - 02:58:11) KG has connected from user-31-174-226-223.play-internet.pl (player KG).
(T46 - 02:58:25) Lost connection: terror from ip-89-161-33-21.tel.tkb.net.pl (client disconnected) (player Terror).
(T46 - 02:58:35) terror has connected from ip-89-161-33-21.tel.tkb.net.pl (player Terror).
(T46 - 02:58:50) New vote (number 5) by terror: reset (needs 51% in favor).
(T46 - 02:58:57) Lost connection: wieder from cs181229094.pp.htv.fi (read error) (player Wieder).
(T46 - 02:59:06) <KG> :wth?
(T46 - 02:59:17) <Terror> :it seems few players online can destroy game
(T46 - 02:59:20) wieder has connected from cs181229094.pp.htv.fi (player Wieder).
(T46 - 02:59:39) <KG> :nice, you can't join the game too?
(T46 - 03:00:04) <KG> : I'll try to relogin then
(T46 - 03:00:08) Lost connection: KG from user-31-174-226-223.play-internet.pl (client disconnected) (player KG).
(T46 - 03:00:24) KG has connected from user-31-174-226-223.play-internet.pl (player KG).
(T46 - 03:00:59) <KG> : now it's ok
(T46 - 03:01:11) Lost connection: monamipierrot from 80.174.169.198.dyn.user.ono.com (read error) (player Monamipierrot).
(T46 - 03:01:16) <Wieder> So what are you trying to do?
(T46 - 03:01:40) <Terror> :testing server
(T46 - 03:01:50) <Wieder> Why?
(T46 - 03:02:12) Lost connection: lafroge from ange.rocq.inria.fr (client disconnected) (player Lafroge).
(T46 - 03:02:33) <Terror> :Im writing time limiter to server and just testing current opssibilites
(T46 - 03:02:43) <Terror> :capabilities
(T46 - 03:03:22) <Terror> :server sucks , many stupid votes are avaialable
(T46 - 03:03:35) Lost connection: kevin551 from 220.80.229.198 (client disconnected) (player Kevin551).
(T46 - 03:03:48) <KG> : / kill terror
(T46 - 03:03:51) <KG>
(T46 - 03:03:59) kevin551 has connected from 220.80.229.198 (player Kevin551).
(T46 - 03:04:13) New vote (number 6) by terror: metamessage LT30 rocks (needs 51% in favor).
(T46 - 03:04:22) New vote (number 7) by KG: kick terror (needs 51% in favor).
(T46 - 03:04:31) <KG> :haha
(T46 - 03:04:38) <Terror> :that sucks too
(T46 - 03:04:41) New vote (number 8) by terror: cut kg (needs 51% in favor).
(T46 - 03:04:51) <KG> : xD
(T46 - 03:05:59) New vote (number 9) by terror: aitoggle terror (needs 51% in favor).
(T46 - 03:06:35) New vote (number 10) by terror: debug terror (needs 1% in favor).
(T46 - 03:06:35) Vote 10 "debug terror" is passed 1 to 0 with 0 abstentions and 10 who did not vote.
(T46 - 03:06:35) Vote 10: terror voted yes.
(T46 - 03:06:42) <Terror> :wow
(T46 - 03:06:48) New vote (number 11) by terror: debug kg (needs 1% in favor).
(T46 - 03:06:48) Vote 11 "debug kg" is passed 1 to 0 with 0 abstentions and 10 who did not vote.
(T46 - 03:06:48) Vote 11: terror voted yes.
(T46 - 03:06:53) New vote (number 12) by terror: debug aloril (needs 1% in favor).
(T46 - 03:06:53) Vote 12 "debug aloril" is passed 1 to 0 with 0 abstentions and 10 who did not vote.
(T46 - 03:06:53) Vote 12: terror voted yes.
(T46 - 03:07:00) <KG> : wth?
(T46 - 03:07:09) New vote (number 13) by terror: debug diplomacy aloril (needs 1% in favor).
(T46 - 03:07:09) Vote 13 "debug diplomacy aloril" is passed 1 to 0 with 0 abstentions and 10 who did not vote.
(T46 - 03:07:09) Vote 13: terror voted yes.
(T46 - 03:07:09) Aloril diplomacy debugged
(T46 - 03:07:20) New vote (number 14) by terror: debug diplomacy munk (needs 1% in favor).
(T46 - 03:07:20) Vote 14 "debug diplomacy munk" is passed 1 to 0 with 0 abstentions and 10 who did not vote.
(T46 - 03:07:20) Vote 14: terror voted yes.
(T46 - 03:07:20) Munk diplomacy debugged
(T46 - 03:07:32) New vote (number 15) by terror: debug diplomacy marduk (needs 1% in favor).
(T46 - 03:07:32) Vote 15 "debug diplomacy marduk" is passed 1 to 0 with 0 abstentions and 10 who did not vote.
(T46 - 03:07:32) Vote 15: terror voted yes.
(T46 - 03:07:32) Marduk diplomacy debugged
(T46 - 03:07:54) New vote (number 16) by terror: debug info (needs 1% in favor).
(T46 - 03:07:54) Vote 16 "debug info" is passed 1 to 0 with 0 abstentions and 10 who did not vote.
(T46 - 03:07:54) Vote 16: terror voted yes.
(T46 - 03:07:58) <KG> :megalol
(T46 - 03:07:59) New vote (number 17) by terror: debug ferries (needs 1% in favor).
(T46 - 03:07:59) Vote 17 "debug ferries" is passed 1 to 0 with 0 abstentions and 10 who did not vote.
(T46 - 03:07:59) Vote 17: terror voted yes.
(T46 - 03:07:59) Ferry system in debug mode.
(T46 - 03:08:19) New vote (number 18) by terror: debug tech Aloril (needs 1% in favor).
(T46 - 03:08:19) Vote 18 "debug tech Aloril" is passed 1 to 0 with 0 abstentions and 10 who did not vote.
(T46 - 03:08:19) Vote 18: terror voted yes.
(T46 - 03:08:19) Aloril tech debugged
(T46 - 03:08:39) New vote (number 19) by KG: debug tech Marduk (needs 1% in favor).
(T46 - 03:08:39) Vote 19 "debug tech Marduk" is passed 1 to 0 with 0 abstentions and 10 who did not vote.
(T46 - 03:08:39) Vote 19: KG voted yes.
(T46 - 03:08:39) Marduk tech debugged
(T46 - 03:10:10) New vote (number 20) by terror: debug city 125 33 (needs 1% in favor).
(T46 - 03:10:10) Vote 20 "debug city 125 33" is passed 1 to 0 with 0 abstentions and 10 who did not vote.
(T46 - 03:10:10) Vote 20: terror voted yes.

I don't know what that "debug" feature does, but I believe we agreed at the beginning of the game that players shouldn't fuck with the in-game polling. I personally am getting more than a little tired of this kind of shit, I dunno about you guys.

[canuck101]

If it's impossible to actually disable voting, I think that we need to disallow creating votes, and enforce a punishment for it.

[munk]

Thing is, we *did* disallow people messing with the polling system, at the beginning of the game when Monamipierrot tried to vote "aitoggle" on some players. We agreed that it should not be allowed for players to wait until they were the only one online and then abuse the polling system to vote themselves access to admin commands.

The damage is done, and Terror now knows whatever info the system gave him access to on the opponents he "debugged". The question is how long before we get some admin action with the "/remove Terror" command. If Terror want to test vulnerabilities, let him go play LTeX. LT30 has rules, if he can't follow the rules, remove him.

[terror]

Ok, then tell me what I debugged ? I think my client didnt got any info from server, and for sure I havent seen any information. I did it only to upset you and some others ppl who stay online 24h per day:D.

If you did disallowed, why it's still allowed ??? It looks like it is still allowed. Don't ask me why patch isn't applied.

[munk]

so your position is that anything that is technically possible to do is allowed? I suppose if that's the rule you want to play by, then the rest of us are no longer constrained by the gentleman's agreement to not mess with the exploitable security holes in Freeciv. I certainly won't feel so constrained, if you're allowed to get away with it.

[Robodave]

I agree with Munk. At the least, Terror, you know the techs and diplomacy status of several of your neighbours, and details about some of their cities. Since you acquired this information outside of the rules of conduct we agreed on -- ie. by cheating -- I think you should resign from LT 30.

If you felt there was a security hole that needed to be addressed, the appropriate action would be perhaps to test it on yourself, and then stop and report it to the admins, instead of using it to gather intel and harass other players.

[terror]

to Munk:
-> so your position is that anything that is technically possible to do is allowed?

Maybe explain why you are logged since game start? It seems you are so angry because you lost connection when debug was executed, maybe cause you are playing rts style keeping elephants as defensive units.
I think it would be even fair to disconnect you that way so some players could make moves unharmed, especially you have units in allied cities probably.
Dont tell us that you are connected just like that, then you can log off just like that.

[munk]

Maybe explain why you are logged since game start? It seems you are so angry because you lost connection when debug was executed, maybe cause you are playing rts style keeping elephants as defensive units.
I think it would be even fair to disconnect you that way so some players could make moves unharmed, especially you have units in allied cities probably.
Dont tell us that you are connected just like that, then you can log off just like that.

If this made any sense at all, or was even a little bit true, I would have a response. You're just talking out your ass.

However, if someone really did obtain info about other players by some hack I would remove them.

Gotcha. so players trying to exploit problems with the game is absolutely OK with you, as long as you can't prove they obtained info. Thanks for clarifying that.

[ifaesfu]

I agree with Terror. There are many players who are "always" online. If they want to play a real time game, they can choose a lot. It spoils the game.
I have already lost several units because of it, as I can't wait hours for my neighbours logging out. I think it was discussed some time ago, but there is no time limit yet.

[munk]

You are also exploiting a problem with the game - by playing rts style. Shall I remove you as well?

I'm not sure I understand why you are accusing me of playing RTS-style, other than maybe your acceptance of terror's accusations that I am. (whatever RTS-style means in a turn-based game, anyway). I generally do keep my client open but minimized during the day, but I play my turn all at once, usually at TC or a few hours afterward, and then I check messages now and again or occasionally fine-tune city settings. I'm sure you can check logs to verify that, if you care.

For "RTS-style" to make any sense, I'd have to be fighting a war, which I'm not. I have exactly 1 unit kill to my credit, when an enemy explorer wandered right into one of my border patrols a turn or two ago. Hell, I don't even have sound enabled, so I don't even get notice when a unit strolls by me.

So, that's cheating, and Terror's messing with the voting system is A-OK (how many votes did he initiate, a dozen or so?), and then I initiate a single protest vote and you admins come down on me like a truckload of bricks with angry threats. I suppose I should have expected that, given that I'm the new guy.

Well, now I know. Feel free to nuke the vote I put up & I won't put up any more. Heck, go ahead and nuke me since I dared to ask that the rules be enforced on someone clearly trying to screw with the system. I was unaware that I was not allowed to question Terror's antics. If I come back tomorrow and find I'm not /removed, then I'll be quiet from now on.

If you *do* nuke me, then let me now say that it has been a pleasure to play with my allies, they are gentlemen and scholars.

[Marduk]

Akfaew already said it all. Running these servers is a lot of work, Freeciv is a very complex game and dozens upon dozens of bugs and loopholes have already been solved over the years. A commercial company would hire testers to track down any remaining issues, but we rely on reasonable and cooperative players to help us solve them. So don't behave like a consumer who wants his money back when something goes wrong. We started as a bunch of friends building a server to have fun, and that's exactly how we want to keep this community no matter how large it becomes.

Since Longturn has grown so large we also have to improve our handling of communication and our system of solving bugs. I'll start playing a bigger role in handling communication and issues with the rules.

When you find a bug in the game, or a loophole in the Longturn rules:

- A friendly reminder to the admins that there's a bug that threatens the game is very welcome. Preferably a direct message rather than a public discussion.

- If it's a vague issue or question, you can contact me. I'll transfer it to Akfaew in a form he can work with. If you have a concrete idea or a patch to solve it you can contact Akfaew directly.

- The more work you put into solving the problem yourself, the faster it's done.

- Anyone who consciously causes damage to the game risks being deleted and possibly banned from future games. If someone causes damage and then you retaliate, causing even more damage to the game, you are also deleted. Think twice, there aren't many communities like Longturn so you don't want to get banned.

[KG]

I totally agree with Marduk. Neither terror or my intention was to use any information against anyone. Take example from a situation which occured some time ago. Terror discovered that our passwords are not secured enough. My was so easy to break that he even wrote about it to me directly He also sent information to Akfaew and posted warning on forum. If we would find the "/debug" function dangerous for gameplay we would do the same way.

Since the game is as it is, please don't take it too seriously It still can be fun.

As for the log-in-all-the-time "strategy" - yes it can be annoying. I lost game against one player because he was online all the time. No way to come close to his city with an agent! I lost but so what? I prefer to go out from time to time, turn off PC and have a smaller bill for electricity If you want to win no matter costs (both in bill and your health) stay online all the time

AFAIR solution to this "strategy" is by limiting time one can be logged in, but discussion about this has not been finished and solution not implemented to the server. If you will come up with idea, you are welcome to put your suggestions on forum

[monamipierrot]

Thing is, we *did* disallow people messing with the polling system, at the beginning of the game when Monamipierrot tried to vote "aitoggle" on some players.

Another way to put it is that SOMEONE tried to aitoggle me...