Any changes you would like to see for a more traditional game?

Post by **wieder** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:23 pm

In more traditional games it's all about winning and becoming super powerful. Are there any changes you would like to see making that to happen? If you don't have ideas for specific units, you can also suggest stuff like more/less powerful navy, better mounted units or maybe something that would make some other action more easy or maybe harder to perform.

Sketlux · Post by **Sketlux** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:47 pm

Zeppelins! Or too fictional?

Lord_P · Post by **Lord_P** » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:03 am

Great idea. But what kind of unit would they be exactly?
An air unit that doesnt need to land each turn. Available earlier than Flight (Industrialisation?). unreachable from ground but v weak in defence (Basically totally obselete once fighters are available). Lots of moves and some kind of weak attack (Bombard damage only?). So an excellent recon/exploration unit that can be used like a weaker bomber on enemy trenches but with limited Air to Air capability?

Sketlux · Post by **Sketlux** » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:25 pm

You said it! Doesnt need to land each turn. Its better to speak of airship though, since they started already from the 1850s and technically Zeppelins are younger coming up with planes. Actually Zeppelins were quite robust in the early stages of WWI withstanding mutiple shots from enemy planes. They could even defend themself with multiple machine guns. Game changer was the introduction of inflammable bullets and they were always vulnerable to artillery. We could also talk of limited transport capability but since Im not aware of any bigger troop deployments by Zeps I would cut back on that, although in the 30s civilian people made transatlantic flights with zeppelins in bigger numbers...

To summarize it:

-Doesnt need to land eacht turn
-Available earlier than flight
-unreachable from ground with exceptions of artillery/howitzers
-lots of moves (guess there is wind in freeciv...)
-weak bombard capability
-weak against planes
-maybe random chance to get lost when flying over the deep ocean? (They quite often got lost due to weather...)
-transport capability max for diplomats and spies? Make it only available with combustion?

Seems all realistic to me.

Now the most important question: can you simply introduce a new unit with new grafics?

Because I have many more unit ideas like crossbowman as advancement of the archer. Tanks could be split in WWI and WWII tanks. But I woudnt necessarily make them mandatory to research. Just as a tactical advance for bulbs.

Sketlux · Post by **Sketlux** » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:28 pm

And other thoughts I posted on the freeciv forum:

"I've always wondered if strategic bombing could be introduced since it is much more that what bombers did in WW2. Destroying homes, factories and infrastructure of cities and not to forget kill humans. I could imagine a city loosing a city structure and/or population per bombing raid but not necessarily units. Odds would depend on if there is a defender e.g. rifleman (also depending on how many) or an anti-aircraft gun structure/unit. Also introducing a tactical bomber for unit combat would close the gap between fighter (more gainst other planes) and bombers (for city destruction)."

http://forum.freeciv.org/f/viewtopic.ph ... 4748#p4748

And

"In the german states scenario I used lake tiles to form rivers producing by that natural bariers between states since big rivers like the Rhine can be a real obstacle and a bridge that size to cross them is not something natural. I therefore thought of a bridge unit that could transport itself to a lake-river tile owned by the player and placed as a bridge. The details (unit or city structure; being close to a city or not) are of course debatable but I like the idea."

http://forum.freeciv.org/f/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9755

Lord_P · Post by **Lord_P** » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:30 am

You could make bridges over impassable lake tiles by creating a kind of fort that workers can build on water. They would have to be on a boat to build it, like bouys. It would also be nice if workers could build a 'Canal' improvement on land tiles that allows ships to pass through. Its fun to do this with cities, but the opportunities are limited by citymindist.
Neither should give any defence advantage, just enable movement.

Sketlux · Post by **Sketlux** » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:16 pm

Yeah, also a topic I mentioned on the forum with pictures:

http://forum.freeciv.org/f/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9755

Sketlux · Post by **Sketlux** » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:35 am

If I could get those Zeppelin grafics, could we get one??? Is grafic in Amplio enough?

Post by **Corbeau** » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:07 pm

I use Trident...

Post by **wieder** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:14 am

The graphics used should work on a vanilla client without a need to download anything extra.

Sketlux · Post by **Sketlux** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:13 pm

Is the Amplio and trident grafic for the steamer enough? (http://forum.freeciv.org/f/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=84630)

If I ask for something similar for Zeppelins, is that enough? Worste case, could we simply download a unit and add it manually?

Post by **Corbeau** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:29 pm

What I am generally missing in mid- and late-game are cheap unprofessional defensive units that can be raised /built quickly in case of emergency, to stop a sudden breakthrough and slow down an invading force. In late game this can be partisans that are not really used that much, but could be slightly cheapened and weakened to serve the purpose, but in mid-game I'm missing something like Militia or Minutemen. Early game has Warriors that are just fine, but they disappear with the appearance of Musketeers. I was toying with tilesets and basically took the Musketeers image and made it black&white, but I couldn't get it working.

Post by **wieder** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:29 pm

This is how the new partisans look like on LT40.

[unit_partisan]
name = _("Partisan")
class = "Land"
tech_req = "Guerilla Warfare"
obsolete_by = "None"
graphic = "u.partisan"
graphic_alt = "-"
sound_move = "m_partisan"
sound_move_alt = "m_generic"
sound_fight = "f_partisan"
sound_fight_alt = "f_generic"
build_cost = 40
pop_cost = 1
attack = 4
defense = 5
hitpoints = 20
firepower = 1
move_rate = 3
vision_radius_sq = 25
transport_cap = 0
fuel = 0
uk_happy = 1
uk_shield = 1
uk_food = 1
uk_gold = 1
embarks = "Helicopter"
disembarks = "Helicopter"
flags = "IgTer", "IgZOC", "Capturer", "NoHome", "AddToCity"
roles = "DefendGood", "Partisan", "BarbarianTech"
helptext = _("\
Partisans are guerilla fighters who are experts\
at using the terrain to their advantage. Partisans\
have no home city and can't be killed by conquering\
cities. Since partisans are trained citizens\
they can return to that and and once again become\
part of the normal population.\
")

They are nice units but building them costs population. They now cost 1 pop but I was thinking that the cost might be even 2.

Perhaps we could do something similar with musketeers? Actually, how about "drafted musketeers"? This unit would be always green and it would also cost at least 2 population? Maybe it could cost even 3? The actual cost on shields would be lower. Perhaps something like 20?

If added, this would be included only to LT40 ruleset since it's more experimental. LT39 will be more traditional LT game.

Post by **Corbeau** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:05 pm

Whar I had in mind was more of a cannon fodder unit, cheap and not a great loss to lose. Population is a considerable loss. So, in the end, these partisans seem like a pretty expensive thing: 40 shields AND 1 population. To me it seems like too much. But, again, that's only my opinion. Others should share their view, too, I have feeling that I'm the only one babbling here

Post by **wieder** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:06 pm

The units:

[unit_drafted_musketeers]
name = _("Drafted Musketeers")
class = "Land"
tech_req = "Gunpowder"
obsolete_by = "Drafted Riflemen"
graphic = "u.musketeers"
graphic_alt = "-"
sound_move = "m_musketeers"
sound_move_alt = "m_generic"
sound_fight = "f_musketeers"
sound_fight_alt = "f_generic"
build_cost = 20
pop_cost = 2
attack = 2
defense = 3
hitpoints = 20
firepower = 1
move_rate = 3
vision_radius_sq = 18
transport_cap = 0
fuel = 0
uk_happy = 1
uk_shield = 1
uk_food = 1
uk_gold = 1
flags = "Capturer"
roles = "DefendGood", "FirstBuild", "HutTech", "NoVeteran"
"BarbarianTech", "BarbarianBuildTech", "BarbarianSeaTech"
helptext = _("\
Musketeers ar drafted infantry equipped with early\
firearms and replace Pikemen as the preferred\
city defender. The drafted units cost less to produce\
but each unit takes 2 population from the city.\
The drafted musketeers are inferior to normal musketeers\
when attacking enemy units.\
")

[unit_drafted_riflemen]
name = _("Drafted Riflemen")
class = "Land"
tech_req = "Conscription"
obsolete_by = "Marines"
graphic = "u.riflemen"
graphic_alt = "-"
sound_move = "m_riflemen"
sound_move_alt = "m_generic"
sound_fight = "f_riflemen"
sound_fight_alt = "f_generic"
build_cost = 25
pop_cost = 2
attack = 3
defense = 4
hitpoints = 20
firepower = 1
move_rate = 3
vision_radius_sq = 18
transport_cap = 0
fuel = 0
uk_happy = 1
uk_shield = 1
uk_food = 1
uk_gold = 1
flags = "Capturer"
roles = "DefendGood", "FirstBuild", "NoVeteran"
helptext = _("\
Drafted Riflemen are World War-era infantry, very good\
at defending your cities but inferior in attacking.\
compared to normal riflemen.\
")

Post by **wieder** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:16 pm

Yeah, I understand what you mean. The problem is that we don't want the players to always use these cheap units for defending the cities. Too cheap units would also bring back the problem with unit training. In some games people have been doing with migrants. With units costing population it's possble to build really fast some troops but only in really deperate situations. Too weak militia units would also be killed too easily.

Post by **Corbeau** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:54 pm

Well, maybe that's the problem of too high veteran levels. I would say that +50% on first kill, +25% on the second etc. is overpowered. And, basically, when analysing if a game setting is a bit off regarding multiplayer gameplay and realism, my initial test is: was it inherited from Sid Meier's Civilization 1? If the answer is "yes", that is a marker to start doubting. Think about that. Because Civ1 was a brilliant single-player game designed to create programmed obstacles for the player to gain a personal sense of achievement when overcoming them. However, a multiplayer has a COMPLETELY different philosophy. For example, look at Wonders. A perfect concept for a single player game. But when it got to multiplayer, they simply had to be reformed into Small Wonders.

But that's a different topic

Anyway, I have a problem with military units costing population, especially two population because then it is a slaughter. But, again, maybe it's just me

It all depends how you base your concepts. I'd give lower veteran levels and weaker Drafted units, maybe with them requiring no upkeep. But a few of those settings need to be combined so it's all about the whole concept, not picking this or that setting.

And I'd suggest different names: Minutemen or Regulars and Conscripts Recruits or Guardsmen. And why obsolete with Marines? This makes it possible to build a shitload and then upgrade, and also removes the possibility to build cheaper units after that.

Post by **wieder** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:12 pm

There are no sprites available for different types of units. With downloadable tilesets it would get complicated very soon. Not everyone would download and install those. The graphics would work with fallback graphics but they would look very different to what someone else would be using. By using very similar units like drafted musks, there is not that much harm for mistaking them to regular units.

And yeah, the idea really is that when drafting you are burning the city population to protect it from the enemy. Currently the partisans could also be added back to the population of the city size is less than 8. That could be also done to other units.

It's also possible that the drafted riflemen would not be obsoleted with marines.

Its probably not possible to make a cheap unit and have no serious penalty for bulding something like that. Not if we don't want people filling the cities with those like they are nowdays filling them with warriors. The idea is that in later game the cheapest regular military unit is like 40-50 shields. If the 25 shield unit would be without upkeep and without population cost, it would be the default unit. Not only for those who want to use it as the last resort.

Maybe one alternative could be that those units would not be able to attack and would not keep any citizens content. You could only defend with them.

Post by **wieder** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:35 pm

Right... Forgot that if drafted riflemen are also obsoleted with marines (always green anyway), the next cheap unit you can build is the partisan.

Post by **Corbeau** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:43 pm

Why wouldn't Drafted Riflemen be obsoleted with Partisans?

Post by **wieder** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:23 am

They could, but the current tech tree doesn't force you to get partisans. Now it's easy to just skip the partisan tech if that's what you want. It's also logical that if standard rifles are obsoleted by marines, the drafted ones should also be obsoleted by comparable units.

Another reason is that the partisans are actually quite nice units when compared to marines. They ignore ZOC and all that. It's not the biggest reason really, just one of the small ones.

However, if it's more reasonable that partisans should obsolete drafted riflemen, we can make it so.

It's really a shame adding new tilesets is not that easy because some people would not upgrade the tilesets from their clients anyway. That would allow us to really add very different militia units. Maybe we will experiment with that one day. For that we would need extremely good instructions for the upgrade and also plan the fall back graphics so that they are not too confusing. With stuff for the cities it's easy to use just a picture of a building (university) for many different types of improvements.

Post by **Corbeau** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:38 am

Gh, sorry, lapsus cerebri. Drafted riflemen are *third* cheap unit in a row, correct? So, why obsolete them at all? This way you are obsoleting a cheap emergency unit with a fully functional one.

Post by **wieder** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:50 am

Yeah, you got a point. Maybe best not to obsolete the drafted riflemen. The price is now 25 shields but if not obsoleted, we could go with 30 which would make it equal to other cheap units without offensive capabilities. Just to prevent training units.