Changes

sokrat · Post by **sokrat** » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:00 pm

Hi,

It is reported above :
- "J.S. Bach's Cathedral" 400: +2 Luxuries in every city.

Well, it costs 600... and doesn't bring anything at all

No luxuries, no hapiness, not even mentioned on the hapiness tab of my freeciv Client (2.3.2, nor 2.3.4).
(On the contrary, Temple Of Artemis does work and is mentioned)

Is it a bug ?
Have i missed a gap ?

Joris · Post by **Joris** » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:20 pm

Ican confirm ToA working properly, but this is pretty damn crucial info before trying to build 600shield wonder

pipo · Post by **pipo** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:17 pm

Ok, I just discovered that the setting for using ennemy infrastructures is turned off (or whatever it is to allow that). I do not think this is good. I also do not remember or see that beeing discussed anywhere. In my opinion, disabling the use of ennemy infrastructures is closer to reality (I do know that not everybody agree realism is a good thing) but more importantly, it alleviates some of the problems of turn change hacks. It is too late for this game, of course since some players already suffered from that, but consider putting in back on for future games please.

ifaesfu · Post by **ifaesfu** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:09 pm

I built JS Bach many turns ago, when the message of the server said that the next turn the Great Library was going to be finished. I think it works because I have 2 luxuries in all the cities without using entertainers nor investing in luxury, but I'm not sure because I can't see any reference to JS Bach in the Happiness report of the cities. There I can see Hanging Gardens in the buildings section together with the temples and Mysticism.

Joris · Post by **Joris** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:32 pm

If it gives 2 luxuries it wouldn't show up under wonders in the the happiness tab, right?

sokrat · Post by **sokrat** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:54 pm

Well,

At the end, I think i can see those 2 luxury points...
If i set to 0% the luxury rate, there is 2 points remaining in every city. So it must be JS Bach's.

I may have thought the effect was stronger, much stronger...

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:07 pm

pipo wrote:Ok, I just discovered that the setting for using ennemy infrastructures is turned off (or whatever it is to allow that). I do not think this is good. I also do not remember or see that beeing discussed anywhere. In my opinion, disabling the use of ennemy infrastructures is closer to reality (I do know that not everybody agree realism is a good thing) but more importantly, it alleviates some of the problems of turn change hacks. It is too late for this game, of course since some players already suffered from that, but consider putting in back on for future games please.

restrictinfra is the setting, as I mentioned in chat. This setting can be changed mid-game. So I suggest making a poll to do that if that's what you want. I don't think it's a good setting personally. Defenders effectively get three times the movement (or more on railroads) than the attackers do, an enormous advantage. I don't see how it is realistic either. If there is a road there, why can't *anyone* use it?

ifaesfu · Post by **ifaesfu** » Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:06 am

Not only restrictinfra is disabled, but also unreachableprotects is enabled. I thought we would play this game on the contrary.
We have the plague on, so I thought we would have these two features too, as they are in the section "OPTIONAL RULES" of the first post. If it isn't changed we'll see again the pretty combination of a plane+an infantry all over the world.

Regarding to restrictinfra:

Grendel wrote:I don't see how it is realistic either. If there is a road there, why can't *anyone* use it?

I think this restriction is more realistic, as enemy troops should march very slowly because of the high possibility of an ambush; while owners of the infraestructure are in their nation and should move faster, without being afraid of an ambush.
Besides, as pipo said, it's a good way to fight the turn change issue.

chomwitt · Post by **chomwitt** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:17 pm

If i interpret correctly numbers i've read : a fortified unit in a city on a square with no defense bonus, with walls will have against a see unit above trireme no defence bonus at all , except maybe 1,5 from being fortified or veteran.

Is that correct?

bardo · Post by **bardo** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:30 am

As far as I know, the defense bonus always depends on the unit type that is attacking, no matter if attacking from a mountain, a river or a ship.
A Marine unit that attacks a city have the same chances when attacking from land than from ship. In both cases the walls are taking into acount, as well as the city defense bonuses. The fortified bonus is an additional x1.5 bonus.

EDITED
I think I miss understood what you meant by "see unit above trireme".
You are right that a defender in a town does not get any bonus against see units (frigates, cruisers, etc) other than the fortify. Except if the city has population 8 or more (+50%), or Coastal defense (+100%).

These are the defense bonuses depending on the type of attacking unit, showed as multipliers (instead of +% as showed in the readme):

Code: Select all

VS LAND UNIT     BASE   (+WALL)
Town (Pop<8)     x1,5    x2,5
City (Pop>=8)    x2      x3

VS SEA UNIT      BASE   (+COASTAL DEFENSE)
Town (Pop<8)     x1      x2
City (Pop>=8)    x1,5    x2,5

chomwitt · Post by **chomwitt** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:28 pm

These are the defense bonuses depending on the type of attacking unit, showed as multipliers (instead of +% as showed in the readme):
Code: Select all
VS LAND UNIT     BASE   (+WALL)
Town (Pop<8)     x1,5    x2,5
City (Pop>=8)    x2      x3

VS SEA UNIT      BASE   (+COASTAL DEFENSE)
Town (Pop<8)     x1      x2
City (Pop>=8)    x1,5    x2,5

I think if attacking sea unit is more advanced form trireme then:

VS SEA UNIT(>trireme) BASE (+COASTAL DEFENSE)
Town (Pop<8) x0 x2
City (Pop>=8) x0 x2

if i read correctly the :

- Every City receives an inherent Defend_Bonus = +50% against Land units
- Every City with Pop>=8 receives an additional free Defend_Bonus = +50% against Land units, and against Sea/Trireme.

ifaesfu · Post by **ifaesfu** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:37 pm

chomwitt wrote: I think if attacking sea unit is more advanced form trireme then:

VS SEA UNIT(>trireme) BASE (+COASTAL DEFENSE)
Town (Pop<8) x0 x2
City (Pop>=8) x0 x2

- Every City receives an inherent Defend_Bonus = +50% against Land units
- Every City with Pop>=8 receives an additional free Defend_Bonus = +50% against Land units, and against Sea/Trireme.

You can't multiply by 0, because it would be the same as an empty city, where defence is 0. If there is no bonus, then the defence points are multiplied by 1.
Also +150% in City (Pop>=8) with coastal defence means x2.5 instead of x2 (+100%)

chomwitt · Post by **chomwitt** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:18 pm

Then:

VS SEA UNIT(>trireme) BASE (+COASTAL DEFENSE)
Town (Pop<8) x1 x2
City (Pop>=8) x1 x2

VS SEA UNIT(=trireme) BASE (+COASTAL DEFENSE)
Town (Pop<8) x1 x2
City (Pop>=8) x1.5 x2.5

- Every City receives an inherent Defend_Bonus = +50% against Land units
- Every City with Pop>=8 receives an additional free Defend_Bonus = +50% against Land units, and against Sea/Trireme.

The def.bonus in cities>8 is only agains land units and triremes

bardo · Post by **bardo** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:51 pm

The def.bonus in cities>8 is only agains land units and triremes

Nop, forget the trireme, they can not attack in this ruleset, and every defensive bonus affects the same against all sea units.

I think the readme explain it right:

Every City with Pop>=8 receives an additional free Defend_Bonus = +50% against Land units, and against Sea/Trireme.

chomwitt · Post by **chomwitt** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:36 pm

Every City with Pop>=8 receives an additional free Defend_Bonus = +50% against Land units, and against Sea/Trireme.

The meaning of the expression 'Sea/Trireme' => all sea units except trireme , is not easily understood. Shouldnt be changed?

bardo · Post by **bardo** » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:20 am

The meaning is supposed to be: sea/trireme = sea and trireme.
I thought it was an universal way to say that "sea and trireme" are equivalent. I used it in other places of the readme, for example:
"Road/Railroads can't be used in enemy territory"

I'll replace the "/" by "and" if it causes missunderstanding.

chomwitt · Post by **chomwitt** » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:37 pm

Do i miss sth?

You said:

Every City with Pop>=8 receives an additional free Defend_Bonus = +50% against Land units, and against Sea/Trireme.
...
The meaning is supposed to be: sea/trireme = sea and trireme.

and:

Nop, forget the trireme, they can not attack in this ruleset, and every defensive bonus affects the same against all sea units

So if trireme cant attack shouldnt be:

Every City with Pop>=8 receives an additional free Defend_Bonus = +50% against Land units, and against Sea units (with the exception of Trireme) ?

bardo · Post by **bardo** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:05 pm

You are right. That is:

Every City with Pop>=8 receives an additional free Defend_Bonus = +50% against Land units, and against Sea units

I wonder how do you use to set the city governor with LT31 rules? I think it is the most important question to understand the balance between food, production and trade. I like to use:

Code: Select all

Food    12
Shield  10
Trade   0
Gold    4
Lux     3
Science 5